The Reverend Elder Nancy Wilson shares her story in Metropolitan Community Churches from member to Moderator. Read or listen to the in-depth interview with Rev. Nancy.

Oral History

 

My name is Reverend Nancy Wilson

Do you have a life-partner or spouse, and would you like to name that individual in this interview?
Yes, Paula Schoenwether and we’ve been together…it’ll be 30 years this coming November.

What background did you come from?
United Methodist; I grew up in the Methodist Church on Long Island, New York.

 

And how did you first hear about Metropolitan Community Church?

Yes, well I’ve two little stories: one is I was at the first gay pride parade I ever went to in 1972 in New York City, with one of my dear friends, Jean, who had just come out, and I was just coming out of the closet. And she wanted to take me to this church—Metropolitan Community Church of New York—and I thought it was a silly idea. Because I thought it was like there was this gay church of these guys who were Church of the Beloved Disciple, and they were sort of very flamboyant and campy about church, and I though that’s what it was. And she said, “No, no, no…it’s a different church. It’s not that different than the Methodist Church we grew up in.” But I didn’t believe her and so I just went home—I took the train home and I didn’t come to church.

Three months later I was in Boston attending seminary—Boston University School of Theology—and the third week I was there, there was a radio show called “Gay Way” radio show. Elaine Noble a professor at Emerson College was…it was the first gay radio show in the country. She was the first openly gay elected official in the country, but before that happened she was doing this radio show. And we heard about it, my roommates and I in Boston, and we turned on the radio show, and there was a young man named Larry Bernier, who was starting a Metropolitan Community Church in Boston. And he said, “And if there’s a woman out there, preferably one who’s in seminary, would you please call me” and gave his phone number.

He got back to his apartment; there were 40 phone calls: one from a woman…from me. He called me—the next day we had coffee. He told me the story of Metropolitan Community Church and asked me if I would co-pastor with him because I was in seminary. And I said, “Yes.”

I’d never been to the church (laughs) but I went the next Sunday. Jim Hayes drove me in his car, he was a law student then, and drove my partner and me and we got in the car and went to Arlington Street Unitarian Church, where MCC was meeting in Honiwell Chapel there—there were about 30 people. Elaine Noble and myself and one or two other women were the only women—it was mostly men—but Larry introduced me at the service and said, “This is our new co-pastor. Nancy, can I use your last name?…(I said, ‘Yes.’)…Wilson.” Because many people did not use their last names then, at all.

And so, I was three weeks in seminary, I was out of the closet, and helping to lead a Metropolitan Community Church that I didn’t even know very much about. (Chuckles)

 

And how long have you been in MCC now?

It’s 35 years…October, it’ll be 35 years, yes.

 

Do you know someone who preached a sermon you’ve never forgotten, and do you know the title?

Oh yes, absolutely! Well several of Troy’s: “Going First Class,” and Freda Smith’s “Purple Grass” I will always remember. I first heard that sermon, I can tell you, it was in the fall of 1975 in Chicago, Illinois. We had just moved to Chicago in 1975 and…we had moved to Detroit and there was a District Conference in Chicago…and that’s when I heard Freda preach. I’d heard her preach before, but that was really remarkable.

I think Jimmy Brock preached a wonderful sermon on the 12 Stones in the Book of Joshua, and that’s a wonderful sermon I also will never forget.

 

And who’s influenced you the most in MCC?

Well, I think there have been many people, but in the early days of MCC certainly, of course, Reverend Perry and Freda Smith as a role model for women in ministry. The first woman minister I ever saw was myself in a mirror, but the second one was Freda Smith.

And those early people in MCC…Jim Sandmire, I would say (whose sermon, “At the Crossroads” I think it was called, was also…I didn’t hear it; I read it—I wasn’t at that General Conference) but certainly Sandmire. I think there were people, certainly in those early days of MCC, lay and clergy, who…Austin Amerine, I think of him…very big influence.

 

If you attend a local MCC now, will you please state the name?

Yes, Church of the Trinity MCC in Sarasota, Florida.

 

And what’s you’re favorite thing about that MCC?

Yeah, well this is a church that has the gift of hospitality, and they welcome people from all over the world at that MCC. They really know how to make people feel welcome, whether they’re there for the first time or coming back. And they just are very generous as a church—their love—and they have wonderful worship, and I love to be able to worship with them, which is not very frequently, but when I’m in town, I love to worship there.

 

And what do you like best about the movement, ministry and community of MCC as a whole?

I think the thing that attracted me most to MCC in the early days was freedom. In this church I, as a 22-year old, had the freedom to preach, to invent liturgy—you know, we had…sort of had Bylaws, but they were very much in the formative stage—but we could create events and liturgy, and we could talk about what MCC was and meant, and we were just making it up as we went along, you know. But I think that sense of radical freedom…and also of core values. At MCC we have different theologies and liturgies but we have these core values around justice and around social action—from right in the beginning it was always there. I remember Rev. Joseph Gilbert with his little box of notecards from prisoners and that…that this was a church that was trying to get into prison (laughs) which was amazing, that we were willing to sue the government for the right to get into prison to minister to our people.

I thought MCC had boldness and freedom, and it really appealed to me as a young person who didn’t think so much about the risks, but just about the joy. And…just the most interesting people you’ve ever met in your life, from every walk of life, were part of MCC.

 

When was the moment that you were most proud to be a part of MCC?

Hmm…You know, I think of a couple of things. I think of being in Jamaica recently and to see 110 Jamaicans being very Jamaican in their worship but very MCC. And their joy and pride and how it is life-giving and life-sustaining, and I thought, “MCC made it possible for this community to have worship and praise and to be connected to God in a place that is so homophobic and violent.” But I thought, “This is what we were born for.”

Or, you know, when I look at 500 people marching in Romania and saying, “God loves you. God loves all people.”

I was very proud of MCC’s work during the worst of HIV/AIDS years, in the United States particularly.

 

And how many General Conferences have you attended?

This is my 20^th. (Laughs)

 

And what do you like best about General Conference?

Oh, for me General Conference is Holy Ground. It’s um…I always cry at the first song in the first service of General Conference because there’s all this emotion of being home, being in the community I love the most, with people who I’ve known and loved and worked with—some of them 35 years, some of them, you know, two weeks. (Laughs) But there is this sense of, sort of, windows and doors opening that just is glorious. The worship is always wonderful; the music…it’s the energy and how much this means to everyone who’s here.

 

And what do you remember about the Inclusive Language Project?

(Laughs heartily) A lot! 1981. I think for the two years prior to that I had just started working full time for the Fellowship in MCC at our headquarters in LA. And there was lots and lots of fear and angst and concern about feminists who were talking about inclusive language—especially about human beings and God and being more open about our gender language. And people who didn’t get it and who thought somehow we were trying to take something away from them or felt very threatened—women and men. And we were at a fever pitch, and what happened was we had not really worked through this. And we had an Inclusive Language Task Force—Brent Hawkes was one of the leaders of that task force—and they worked on a report that came to General Conference.

And things were at fever pitch: I was at a District Conference a few months before and a fistfight nearly broke out at the District Conference meeting—people were screaming and yelling at each other. And, you know, at the very first opening worship service of that General Conference, the three pastors of the church in Houston stood up and really denounced feminism and inclusive language; and so all of us who were supportive stood during the entire sermon. (Laughs) We were very dramatic in those days, and, I think, a little less, sort of, you know I think we’ve become a little more, sort of, tolerant of each other, hopefully. But it was very tough to hear people preaching, you know, that somehow inclusive language was wrong, or…

But what happened during that meeting was a marvelous move of the Holy Spirit which was people began to talk to each other. And we talked and we talked, and we had business meetings that lasted days on end. And we cried and people talked, and we made assurances and we gave some flexibility and said, “You can go at your own pace in your churches to get up to speed with inclusive language. You don’t have to do it tomorrow.” I said, “Fifty dykes with machine guns are not gonna come to your church after we pass this to make sure you’re doing it right, you know?”

And it really is about opening our hearts and our minds to who God is. And if we can look at it that way—it’s not taking away, it’s really about adding to our view of God and humanity. And we got through it…I think it passed by 90% or 85% or something like that. And I think most of the people felt like we were not gonna lose Jesus, we were not gonna lose our faith, that we had enough flexibility. And I think we learned to be more kind and considerate of each other.

 

What do you remember about the ordination of women as well as people of color?

Yes, the first woman ordained was Rev. Elder Freda Smith, and I was present at her ordination at the General Conference. We ordained people at General Conference only in those days, so people saw the Committee and then they were approved for ordination then.

Two things happened: Freda was ordained—approved for ordination—and then she was also nominated from the floor to be Elder. (She may have talked about that, but…) And she’s the only person ever to be nominated form the floor—they had all men nominees—and someone nominated her from the floor. And she was overwhelmingly elected. And so to see her, not only be ordained—be the first woman—but then be…become an Elder was a powerful… Powerful.

And the same thing with people of color: I think of Rev. Jose Mojica, who was probably the first Hispanic, Puerto Rican, ordained minister at the Cristo Rey MCC in New York. It was a Hispanic MCC in New York that actually now, I think still meets, but meets within MCC New York itself. And Delores Jackson, Dee Jackson, who was also from Brooklyn—I think the first African American person licensed. Not sure if she was ever—in those days we licensed people for a few years and then you got ordained—so, I’m not sure she was ever ordained. Delores may have been the first person ordained, Delores Berry. There were, you know, Emmett Watkins, I think, in the early days, and wonderful people of color who paved the way.

Rev. Renee McCoy, who was out of MCC Detroit, founded an MCC Church in Harlem for a while. Later she founded Full Truth Church in Detroit. I saw her just a few months ago and she’s back at MCC and preaching, so…

 

What about as far as people of color becoming Elders?

Yes, well, I remember especially the year that Larry Rodriguez was…became an Elder, and then Darlene Garner and Hong Tan, I think the following Conference. So we went from having no people of color on the Board of Elders to having 3, out of 7, and that number goes up and down, and it is a struggle.

Some places we have the freedom to appoint leadership and so we can influence and change. We also need to mentor people who have a calling to Fellowship leadership; whether it’s as an Elder or as a staff person or as a Board of Administration or important places. You know, the Treasurer of our Fellowship is a person of color and, you know, one of the official officers. But I think this continues to be an issue of how do we mentor leadership—young leadership, and people who are ready to step up.

 

What do you remember about the first Children’s Ministry within your MCC as well as the larger denomination?

Yeah, well, you know MCCLA, where I pastured many years before, in the very early days had had an amazing youth group that had hundreds really of youth. And it was very influential and many of our clergy came out of that youth group.

I think MCC struggled a lot around children and young children. In the very earliest days of MCC there was fear that people would accuse us of pedophilia, of abusing children, and so there was a little bit of resistance to having children because we were afraid of people’s reaction. I think that’s no longer true in the vast majority of MCCs. I think there are little remnants of it left, but really in the last 10 years, particularly then, there’s been an explosion of children’s ministry at local MCCs as gay and lesbian people have not only…have children from heterosexual marriages but adopt children; who have children by artificial insemination or, you know, and other ways.

And now, it’s so common to see young children at MCC churches and we’re working on a curriculum for teens. And my goddaughter, who came to MCC when she was 3, is now 25 and has 2 grown children, and she’ll be at this General Conference with her children. There are people who’ve grown up in MCC now who are getting married, graduating from college, having kids—many of them heterosexual, some of them not, some of them lesbian or gay or…you know. And so, I think we’re seeing our next generation, and I think there probably are still many places and cities where there are gay and lesbian parents who would love to have a church that welcomed their children—that was a place where children could go.

I remember one story of a Methodist minister who became transgendered and he and his wife stayed together when he transitioned to female. The Methodist Church wanted them to divorce, but he did not. They came into MCC and had two young boys, ages 7 and 9, Matthew and…I forget the other boy’s name…and they came to our membership class and when we said, you know, “Gee, what do you think about your family joining MCC?” Matthew said, “I love coming to MCC ‘cause at MCC I don’t feel so different. My family’s not so different. My family’s OK and good.” And he said, “I feel…I love coming here. I feel OK.”

And, you know, to think about this 9-year old boy who could have a safe place to come to church where his family was not so different than other people’s of different families. I think that’s a wonderful gift MCC has to offer to LGBT families.

 

That’s a powerful testimony and it leads right into our next question about the ministry and movement of transgender people within the denomination.

Yes, yes. Well, part of my history is that my former partner is transgendered. Um, he’s here at Conference; his name is Rev. Sky Anderson. I hope you do an oral history with him. (We have an interview set up! Oh, great!)

Well, Sky and I met in Boston in 1973. We were together for probably 4 years or so and moved to Detroit. And in those days, of course, there were no resources; there was very little help or support. And so, you know, our…we were both pastors in MCC, and it was a very traumatic, difficult time. I think if we had lived in today’s world things would be… have been very different for us.

And it was the grace and mercy of some wonderful other MCC people, Jeff Pulling and others, who really helped Sky and eventually got him to Stanford, where he met his wife, his present wife—she was a nurse on the floor on which he was a patient. And Sky and I certainly reconciled our personal relationship, because we love each other deeply and we always have—so we’re still very good friends. But it was a painful time, and (unintelligible) can understand the process or what it was about. So, I’m grateful that we both survived, and that he is also back in MCC. I know you’ll have a wonderful interview with him.

 

You talked a little bit earlier about AIDS within the MCC movement and the effect that’s had on it. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Yes, I think, I think we are still, understanding and kind of unraveling the whole time of the intense HIV/AIDS time within MCC. You know, AIDS is still a hugely destructive force in the whole world, and much more prevalent than it was then. But in that early 80s to early 90s was the time when we lost the most members and friends to MCC. And I’ve heard very different estimates of what that was—I think we lost close to 100 clergy, which we only have 350 clergy now, I mean, you think of that, so… I buried probably, at least 300 people in 10 years from HIV/AIDS, and that’s, you know, many of my dearest and closest friends and colleagues.

We had multiple loss to a degree that, you know, what happened was, if people didn’t die, in leadership, they burned out because they were so exhausted. I mean, there are a group of us that lived through those years pastoring, and we don’t know exactly how we did it and we’re not sure we would want to ever repeat it.

Part of the hard thing was that there was a holocaust going on in your own life and back yard, but the rest of the world ignored it, and, you know, acted like it wasn’t happening or it wasn’t that important. You know, Ronald Reagan, our President, did not say the word HIV/AIDS until his second term. His entire first term, when AIDS was first discovered, till past 1984, he did not say the words. And if it had not been associated with gay people, that would not have been true.

So I think in the very earliest times of HIV/AIDS, what happened was we didn’t know if it could be casually transmitted—really—because we didn’t have enough time to know that. So what we had to do was go on faith, and when we would walk into hospital rooms and they’d want us to wear masks—they thought to protect us, we really had to protect them ‘cause their immune systems were shot—but we began taking off the masks and touching and, you know…People really thought we couldn’t touch people with AIDS; people were afraid to take communion with people with AIDS or certainly from people with AIDS.

So those of us who were MCC clergy and leaders, we just had to go out there and say, and I said after a few months, I said, “If it were casually transmitted I think I’d be sick or dead by now. Right?” ‘Cause I would hug people, I would hold them; we did people’s laundry; we, you know, had to clean up after people; we, you know, it was terrible. There weren’t hospices at first; there weren’t places for people to die with dignity, so we took care of people in their homes. We…we did all kinds of things, and believe me, if it were casually transmitted, I…I would be dead. But at first we really didn’t know and we had to do it by faith; we had to just believe.

And the longer we went on, we began to suspect this is not casually transmitted, you know, we kinda know that now. But it was educating, you know…you know, at some basic levels about…things about sexuality that, you know, we didn’t know or we weren’t part of, that I think were sometimes funny, sometimes, you know, strange or… But we had to become very familiar with what safe sex meant, with what male and female sexuality issues with… And we had to be very blunt and very bold in our churches to talk, and to tell people to be safe and to care for each other. And I’m very proud of the ways in which MCC cared for—took care of—people who were sick and dying. Ministered to their families and did that tirelessly for 14 years through the worst of HIV/AIDS.

 

We’re gonna take a little bit of a different approach and talk about, structurally, the changes that have occurred at MCC, specifically around General Council to Districts to Regions.

Right, well, I was part of the group that invented our new system, and very much felt like in the old days we had the haves and the have nots. Some Districts had money to hire a full-time personnel; others didn’t. So dividing the world into Regions that all have equal access to resources means that we can resource places around the world we could never have resources. We would not have churches and movements in Romania or Latin America or things happening in Malaysia right now if we did not have our new structure—this new structure that allows Portfolio and all that, that allows Elders to share and support each other, and has full-time Elders. Most of us were volunteers as Elders for all those first 20, 25 years of MCC—we pastured churches, did other things, were teachers while we were Elders—and there was not enough time, ever, to do the things we needed to do. We couldn’t grow, and I think now we’re positioned to grow in new and healthy ways.

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