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A member of MCC since 1987, Rev. Wanda Floyd leads MCC as a church planter and pastor. Listen to Rev. Wanda’s hiStory online!

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Oral History

Rev. Wanda Floyd

Where were you born?

Henderson, North Carolina

What do you call home now?

Home now is Durham, North Carolina

If you have a life-partner or spouse, do you wish to name her in this interview?

Cheryl Griffin, 12 years

And the date of your anniversary?

July 28th

Did you grow up in the church?

I did: Southern Baptist

Alright, what was that like?

Um…it…actually it wasn’t too bad. I did the usher boards [audio]; I did the choir…youth missionary, vacation Bible school…um…the pageants, all the pageants, Easter and Christmas—I know that Luke passage by heart—you know, with the…the one with swaddling clothes and everything in it? And uh…it wasn’t, it wasn’t too bad—it was a very peaceful life in the church. The church was where I found sanctuary.

So you did “the Baptist thing?”

I did, I did…we were Baptist.

Fully involved, engaged…

Fully involved, fully engaged from the time I was born until the time I left to go to school, so all 17 years of my life.

So when did you first hear about MCC, then?

Second year in college—at NC State University in Raleigh, North Carolina.

How did you find out about MCC?

I wrote the gay group on campus and asked about their group. I was a student there; and a guy wrote me back a letter, which I held on to ‘bout 5 years, that basically said that their group on campus was predominately male, but there was a church in Raleigh named St. John’s that had a pretty good mix of male and female, that (unintelligible) more interested and more accepting there and more comfortable for going there, as opposed to the group on campus. And so, I was with somebody; we went there for the first time December, oh not December…Gay Pride…June 1987. So I’ve been here 20 years.

So what was that, you know 20 years ago, you first kind of encountered MCC…what was it, what’d you see, what’d you smell, what’d you feel, what’d you think?

I walked in, and as I was walkin’ in, there was a guy—I guess it was the usher, the greeter was at the door sayin’ that they’d gotten a bomb threat, and the TV crew were threatening to come, and that if I sat on one side of the church I’d definitely be on TV, but if I sat on the other side of the church I wouldn’t be, and I had a choice to make if I wanted to come in the service or not that day.

And so my partner and I chose to, and we chose to also sit on the side where the TV was gonna be…if we’re gonna come out, just come on out…get it out of the way. But for me, when I walked in, there was a huge sense of peace, I think, that happened within me. ‘Cause growing up in the church—I’d left the church for a while because I wasn’t sure where I would fit in at the church, then when I came out I was like, “well, there is no place for me in church.” And so there was a big gap of about…for me, a big gap…for years I didn’t do anything, no church or nothing unless I went home…breaks at school.

And so, um…it was a Unitarian Church that we worshipped in at the time—pretty good sized—not a lot of people there Sunday, very few people of color…I think I might have been the only African-American lesbian there, and was for about…6 or 7 years, I think?…that was regular attending, then Moses [audio] floated in, but I was pretty…one of the only black females. My partner I was, I ended up with was in the military but she was there a week, and then another guy, uh…friend of mine, we were the two that were there just about every Sunday.

So, who preached the first sermon you ever heard in…?

Rev. June Norris…was my pastor, until they…she was my pastor. (Laughs)

OK, there’s a story there.

Well, when I came in they were havin’ some challenges with her. Apparently she was doin’ too much, so they thought. She was also pastoring the church in Fayetteville—trying to do a pilot church in Fayetteville, North Carolina, which is about an hour-and-a-half, two hours from Raleigh—and what I found interesting was these people trying to get her out of the pulpit. I stayed out of it ‘cause I didn’t know anything about it…tried to suck me in but I said, “No, I’m not getting’ a part of this.” So I went to church and left, that was about it—didn’t do anything else social with the people.

But eventually, they… she resigned, quietly; and the people who wanted her out also left. That was kinda weird to me; I never understood that. And at some point…somewhere along the line, Wayne showed up—Wayne Lindsey—and he was Interim for about a year or so, and then they voted him in as pastor, I believe in 1989, and he stayed pastor until 19…(counts in a whisper)…2001, 2002 something like that.

Isn’t it fascinating, in a conflict and you just…and then everyone goes…it’s like, so what’d you do?

Right, so the purpose of the conflict—you didn’t want your person here and so they’re gone now, so why do you leave too? And I was very…I, I…it still happens, of course, I still don’t understand that mentality—I don’t get it, I don’t understand it—but I’m sure there was more stuff to it than that. But she was older—she just retired—she’d been around for so long. She was a very…she was a very…very good pastor, I thought.

Who’s had the greatest influence on you?

Oh my goodness…greatest influence…um…since I’ve been in MCC? I would say…the first person came to mind was Darlene Garner, and the second person came out was Delores Berry. Darlene mainly because she was…I came…I started in 1987 but I got really involved in MCC in 1993 and that was the first year that she was voted in as Elder, and she was the first African-American Elder. And when it happened, for me it was like, “OK, there can be a place for me here.” Because, unfortunately then, as of now, there’s still not a lot of me walkin’ around, but at least by seein’ that up front—in front of me—it was like it was, “there’s hope, I can find a place here.”

And I think with Delores Berry, um…she just has such a prophetic spirit about her that just draws people in…into her, that I stay away from her. I don’t want ‘em tell me…I don’t want to read my beads [audio].

Girl, you know how many people tell me they stay away from her.

She did build the days up [audio], but I let her do it okay. I don’t mind her holdin’ my hand when I allow her to. When she just grabs my hand says, “Come with me” then I don’t like it.

But um…but I think those…I think they would be the two that would…that I would name off the top of my head, yeah.

Most, most, most memorable sermon—the one that you just cannot forget. Who gave it; where was it; what happened?

Oh my God…you may want to turn that off for a second while I think about this. Most memorable sermon…where was I? My God…oh my goodness…I’ve heard so many.

I can’t think of anything, you know, unfortunately because of, because of the clergy conference…the only thing comin’ up to me is something that happened in clergy conference just recently. And it wasn’t…it wasn’t what was said, it was who was sayin’ it and (unintelligible) presented, and that was Doretha, who was out of Sacramento and had the Bapto-Pentecosto-gospel groups, as she calls it. And she was doin’ the message, I think it was of the mornin’—I can’t remember which morning it was—but what it…when she…as I was sittin’ there listening to her message I was thinking, you know, I…I’m in a strange place right now, just goin’ through some things, and I realized that she reminded me in her presentation…in her presentation uh how she spoke and and whatnot, that she reminded me I had forgotten who I was as a black person in MCC. And um…that…bothered me on some levels but also finally released me from some things. And I think for a long time, and thank God it never happened, but I think for the longest time I was trying to fit Imani into something that was MCC and it’s not MCC—it has MCC behind it, but it’s not MCC because MCC is predominantly white male and we’re not.

And I think for the longest time I, not the church—the church did, thank God, did what God wanted ‘em to do, and I went along with what God wanted me to do—but I think the struggle for me was an internal struggle being an MCC pastor, and pastoring a church which was predominantly African-American within a larger denomination that’s predominantly white, and not feeling that that was OK on some level. And, um…I’m not sure what she said, but it was something…I think she…’cause she kept talkin’ about, you know, this is who I am, this is who I am, this is who I am; and…I hadn’t lost myself completely, but I think I had gotten so, um…assimilated into MCC that I’d forgotten that, “You know what? I’m black; I’m not white. I don’t preach like white folk; my church ain’t white; my church don’t treat me like white folk do. ‘Cause I been in the same job for 10 years—I been at Imani for 10 years—and the totally different culture in a white, predominantly white congregation/predominantly black congregation—it’s a totally different culture. And I think there’s a part of me that had been fighting that in a sense of…I’ll give you an example.

In MCC there’s not a lot…(stops, starts, stops)…in a white culture church—that’s a better way of putting it—there is, there’s not a lot of emphasis on the interworkings of the pastor and the pastor’s spouse. And what I mean by that is—from what I’ve seen, this is just my, my experience—in my experience most of the…the white churches that I have seen and…and…and um…watched from a distance—also and talked to the pastor—it’s the pastor. If the pastor has a partner, okay. In a black church it’s not like that. In the black church it’s like she might as well be my co-pastor; and that’s a totally different dynamic that just only recently—I say recently: like the last 3, 4 years—I’m beginning to really understand that, you know, we’re gonna have to shift some things. We’re going through a huge transition right now, and I think this is part of, part of the issue with the transition.

And so I think that, her sermon, and just her whole persona reminded me…like, “wow. Thank God, God could do for me what I couldn’t do for myself.” So it’s not a…it’s not an impact that’s gonna cause the church to be different, because the church is, the church is the church; but what it did, it did something for me.

Now, Doretha’s also a church planter, and you’re a church planter, so…

You see, 10 years ago…10 years ago, um…I’m not really sure if MCC knew what to do with me. I know they didn’t, and I’ll tell you why: Troy Perry asked me if he could come to my church. Now for the Moderator to ask me if he could come to Imani told me something.

Like now, what kind of…it’s a church…it’s a MCC church. Why wouldn’t you think you’d be welcome? But I think it came along before it was really time and, and wanted to be involved. I know Jeffrey’s up in Philadelphia and Leevahn’s in Truth Center in Atlanta, but I think the difference that I see in the two is that, on some levels, I grew up in MCC and being here for as long as I have been—I was lay delegate for 6 years and clergy rep for 4 years on District Committee—so there’s, and I don’t tell it in an ego way, but in a sense there’s people who kn…who have seen me along the way, more so—that have had contact with me and seen me—more so than they’ve seen Jeffrey and seen Leevahn.

So there’s a part of me that feel, okay, their churches are no different than me, on some levels, but it’s almost like because I seem to be more…understanding of the MCC culture, there is more of pressure on me to be a little bit more of the MCC culture than these other two churches. Does that make sense? Probably not…

I’m thinking what I’m hearing is you’ve felt a pressure, internal and/or external, (More, mainly internal) mainly internal, (mainly internal) to assimilate.

Yes

“Resistance is futile. Borg.”

There you go. And…and…and it…and it…the…the…the grace of God comes in that…God understanding that, that the struggle was within me and not with the church, because the church is the church and they…they, we…we…we have fun on Sundays, people are, are using their gifts; people are coming to church and having fun, and so the struggle—and they, and they see themselves as a black church, no ifs ands or buts about it, that’s how you treat me, that’s how you treat Cheryl, that’s the expectation, that never changed from day one to this day.

Isn’t it though, in part, each person, to some extent, within MCC has to take this journey of integrating to wholeness?

Yeah, but I wonder how many people are willing to do that. I didn’t have any choice, ‘cause I was just tearing myself up inside. I mean, I was depressed; all kinds of crazy stuff was goin’ on, and I just had to figure out, “Okay now,…God, you c’n tell me what the hell is goin’ on, ‘cause this is drivin’ me crazy!” And I think that’s what it was.

And that’s…her message this week just confirmed that. I think—I think the transformation for me actually started about 3 or 4 months ago. Um, and I think being here and hearing her and seeing her, um…just…confirmed some things. And…and then…and then Delores takin’ my hand—takin’ me to her room—also said some things that I, I…matter-of-fact, she…um, repeated back to me something I had just shared with Cheryl about an hour before on the telephone—in connection to mind: that I had been trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I’d just said to Cheryl and I’m sittin’ there talkin’ to Delores, and Delores said, “You know what, I think for the longest time, I’ve been trying to make you fit a square peg into a round hole.”

I th…I just sat back and I said, “Okay. I got it, God; I got it. You ain’t gotta hit me up in the head—behind my head no more; I got it.” You know, so…

So, what do you love about your church?

The people, actually; I…I…I…I feel very…uh, honored and um…very blessed by the people there. They drive me crazy, um, but I love them and um, I like to think they love me most days. I love them all the time—may not like them all the time, but I love ‘em all the time, and I think they love me too.

How long have you been…

10 years, for 10 years, November.

You guys are comin’ up on 10-year anniversary. Now I gotta ask you, has your church been planted yet?

Hah, uh…from the outside yet?

Have you ha…is, has…is, is Imani a planted congregation—founding pastor, church planter?

Yes. (Unintelligible)

Is your congregation planted, or is it still kind of in the process of being planted?

I think it’s still in the process, but um…it’s, it’s goin’ through that, that 10-year transition thing right now, and, and uh realizing that, you know, we need to make some changes—some structural things, some leadership things—to um…to maintain the freshness and the newness. And so we’re in the middle of that right now; actually workin’ with Arlene on some things um…that is, is gradually bringing a new sense of Spirit, a new sense of freshness into the congregation. And it’s been really good; (Yeah) it’s been very, very good.

You know, I can still see you’ve got this deep passion and love for your people, and you, you are nowhere near bein’ released goin’ anywhere. You are there; that is your church.

(Laughs) I’ll, I’ll know when it’s time to go, when God has me do what I need to do. (Yeah) Yeah, I’ll, I’ll know it, I’ll know it.

Yeah, but all in your face you’re like—you are there.

Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m committed for as long as God wants me there.

So, so what is it about Imani that just is…just kept you grounded there?

Um…

Besides God; now we know God.

Yeah (Yeah) Um, I think, uh…the fact that there are times in which I can look out—in the congregation—and truly say that if Imani wasn’t there, that person would be dead.

And the sad part about it is, there are stories like that all over the place. Um…but um…(aside about cell phone)… um, but there are some folks that I know, that if—beyond a shadow of a doubt—that if I had not been crazy enough to say “yes” to God, they would not be alive today…Angel bein’ one of ‘em. Angel wouldn’t be here; there’s no way, after all the stuff he went through, there is no way that he would be where he is today if he hadn’t found Imani.

So you can look at the ministry and mission of Imani, and know that you’re changing the world—with each life, you’re changing the world. Well, let’s take it up to, to MCC—the mission and ministry community of MCC—what do you love about it, and what’s the challenge that’s still there? You can answer either one first. (Both laugh)

Um…what do I love about’t, what do I find challenging…I think what I love about it is, because of my background and my upbringing, um being a part of MCC is comfortable for me. And what I mean by that is, is I, I grew up in an environment that was predominantly white and so that’s, I think, is one of the things that helps me orientate my way through this whole system.

I think the challenging part about that is the same thing: being a person of, of African descent within a denomination that’s predominantly white, that is—my experience and my perception—only in the last, maybe…6 or 7 years really began to understand that we’re here and we’re not going anywhere.

We’ve had, you know, we’ve had a little conference (unintelligible) before (unintelligible) the PAD Conferences that…being for 20 years were the time for which the…the black folks was tagged onto the white folks’ conference—that’s, and that’s how we looked at it. And um…I think once we began to move away from that and have our…’cause I was on the initial—talk about history—I was on the very initial call that talked about the very first conference, and there was a person on the call that said, you know, they wanted to…thought it’d be good to have like a couple days before the General Conference. And I said, “I can’t, I can’t support that.” I said, “I, I believe that we should…I believe that we can sustain a conference on our own, and if that’s the thing that we’re gonna go in, then I will hang up on the phone call now.”

I was shakin’ in my boots because these are people who were like um—they’re not around now—um, but folks like Robbie, um…was on the call. Um…the person I was actually talking to at the time was Sandy Robinson. Um, I think LaPaul Turn (Turner?) was on the call, Delores Berry, I want to say Darlene but I can’t remember for sure, but I remember Sandy was the one I went up against. (some whispered asides at this point)

So you found yourself articulating that we’re not gonna be a tag-on.

Yeah, yeah, I didn’t want to be…I, I thought we had enough people—you know, I hadn’t seen a lot of us at that point—but I really believed that, that if this is something that we wanted to do and wanted to sustain it, we had to separate; we had to—and I don’t mean like separate it black and white, but separate it sense of we had to establish our, our own conference, and um… And the first couple of years that’s what we did—the first couple of conferences—and then, then we gradually began to integrate w’the allies. And I think now that the um…the formula we have now works really, really well, and so I think, you know, it can only get bigger and bigger and bigger from here.

So what you love and what you…is challenging is…(The same) it’s one and the same.

One side of the coin; the other side of the coin, but the same coin.

So fitting that into larger MCC, kind of…what’s that mean?

That MCC is a reflection of the world, which is the way a church should be.

Now, so what makes you most proud about MCC?

The fact we still here, and that we have survived without Troy Perry as our Moderator. I think a lot of people didn’t know—didn’t think or know we could do that. And I think, um, that’s a testament really to him, um, because the groundwork that he did to pass the baton—because of how he passed the baton in sense of passing it and staying away. So…and I really…and that’s one of the things that Nancy said that to her—she spoke to the clergy and said that he had not done anything except for one day, and that was in the last month when Jerry Falwell died. And he said…she said he called ‘em on the phone, said, “You gotta do something; you gotta send something out.” And she said in the times that he’s left and she’s been onboard as Moderator, that it’s the only time that he has called her and said, “Yo..You gotta do this.” But he has definitely been “hands off” and I, and I, and I really respect that—not really sure how many people could do that after so many years. But um…and so, for us to still be going, for us to still be growing is a, is a testament to his, to his legacy.

I think I have to echo; I, I think he models what a, what a pastor needs to do: they need to lead the church (Completely; completely.) You know, he really never stopped modeling…

And that’s great that he was able to just…that he had, that he had enough um…enough uh, respect and…had enough um, respect for Nancy and for the Fellowship to do just that.

(Brief sidebar conversation occurs here.)

So for 20 years you hit lots of General Conferences; what was your first?

First General Conference: Tapatio Cliffs, 1993.

Say that again!

Tapatio Cliffs in Arizona, I think it’s (unintelligible) ‘93.

Wow, what’s memorable about that one?

It was my first one.

Yeah, but what, what made it…

Darlene being voted in as Elder.

Alrighty; and so that sticks.

And goin’ up on the stage with uh…a rainbow hat on and with a umbrella on my head—one [of those] propeller hats, it was rainbow colored. They were…at that time they were doing like interviews of people in, in the houses, and somehow or other I had gotten picked to do that. So I walk up on stage with this rainbow colored hat and a propeller on top of it.

Bein’ interviewed by Troy Perry—that was um, probably the high point and the low point (both laugh) of my 20 year history at MCC. If I would have known I was comin’ up on stage, I would have left the hat! Oh yeah, that was…whoo…

And people remember that hat, too. If I were to walk out of here right now with the hat on my head, there are many people who’d probably say, “I remember you.”

Oh, amen—make your mark! (Yeah) So what are you looking forward to at this General Conference?

Um…just reconnecting…just reconnecting. Seeing people I haven’t seen in a while. That’s it more than anything else, I mean and…and that’s…and that’s, for me, what General Conference is about, is reconnecting ‘cause with us being so spread out…now with Regions and a lot of people that I knew in my previous District/Region left the Fellowship. So a lot of my connections aren’t here anymore, and so at General Conference is where I can connect with people I haven’t seen in a while.

Well, I think you came in after the big um…the big deal around inclusive language, and yet I still think that inclusive language is still very much a present in…

Uh-huh, in some places, yeah.

Yeah, and just kinda dialoguing what to do so what do you do with inclusive language?

For me it’s not inclusive language, it’s including language. Because my belief that you can be too inclusive that you’re exclusive. And I think if we’re going to move towards being an inclusive church—inclusive Church of God—that we need to look at the language that we use and understand that, for example, coming from a congregation that’s predominantly African-American, I was not gonna stand up in my congregation and say, “You know what? You can’t use the word ‘Father’ in here. I’m sorry, we’re MCC and this is the law; you can’t do it.” I would have a white congregation right now if I did that.

And I think now as…as…was reflected in the, the, the speech that um, Jim Mitulski gave, that’s something they’re finally beginning to look at—is the fact that, you know, language can be a barrier. And I think that’s partly why, um…we haven’t had a lot of, of people of color, particularly African-American, come into the Fellowship and stay. Because it’s kinda hard, it’s kinda hard to sing, you know, “Amazing grace! How sweet the sound that saved a soul like me” when all you know is ‘wretch.’ (Um-hm…yeah) Yeah.

And so I, I’ve never corrected people. I’ve…Jesus didn’t correct people; Jesus met them where they are—where they were—and my feeling as a pastor is, “so am I.” I talk about inclusive language, and my scripture’s inclusive, my sermons are always inclusive; nobody ever heard, hears the word “He” come out of my mouth in church—not even really now, tell you the truth, I’m so acclimated (I’m so good, such a good little follower.) um…(both laugh)…that it feels weird to somewhere else and hear, and hear “He.” And uh, but, but believe it or not, I hear it, I’m hearing it more and more in MCC churches that I’ve been to. And it’s a balance; they find a balance.

(Unintelligible) it’s important to have a balance.

And that’s not something…I think that what is happening there is that people are beginning to give themselves permission to do things differently. Uh, I think one of the main things Jim said was that, you know, MCC’s not the only game in town anymore, we gotta, we gotta do something different about that. And that’s something that we a church been struggling with for a while. If, is MCC where we need to be?

I, I’ve looked into UCC; I’ve looked into um, um…talked to the, not talked but emailed the guy back and forth—um, who’s head of our conference in the area I’m in—and that was part of why we’re looking (noise obscures voice) to see, we didn’t think that MCC was still the place for us because we’re beyond the “God loves you gay and lesbian people,” you know; we’re like, we need to move beyond that. And, and if MCC’s not gonna allow us to do that, then we need to look at doing something different.

Well do you feel that it’s, that it’s being allowed, encouraged, nurtured…

Yeah, yeah, I mean that was, that was the whole crux of, of uh Jim’s speech to the clergy was that, you know, we gotta reinvent ourselves if we’re gonna stay relevant. And Delores said, “You know, I used to sing Gospel,” she said, “but now I sing Contemporary and I do (unintelligible.)” And I think, um, because we don’t have a long history—I mean, we’re only like 30-something years old—we’re not, we’re not old—and I think not bein’ as old um, causes us to continue to try and do the same model here, here and here and not look at flexibility. And I think only til you’re in an environment in which you are forced to look at issues—um, like inclusive language, the dress, and all those things—do you even think about those kind of things. (Yeah)

I mean, I, I may go t—well, of course I walk up…I wouldn’t show up in church like this—but um, service-wise here I may show up one night in jeans to worship. Nobody at church’s ever seen me in jeans, except somewhere off like at a function in which jeans was the appropriate thing to wear, but I’d never wear jeans into the church on any given Sunday; it’s not gonna happen.

And, and how is that? Why’s that?

The culture; because of, again because of the culture, um and, I’m fine like that, I mean, I wouldn’t want to wear blue jeans anyway—too hot—on Sunday I sweat too much. Um…but again, it’s a cultural thing: I mean, they’ll still come in and it take 2 or 3 hours to get dressed (on a Sunday.)

And of course, there’s some just walk in with blue jeans and stuff on, but what I try and stress and what I, what I do talk about—worshipping God in Spirit and Truth—is that we all have a difference of truth, and if we are trying to do something that we’re not, then we’re not being true and we can’t…definitely can’t worship in the Spirit that way. So if jeans are the best that you got, then jeans are the best that you got. So be it.

You entered into MCC when…when Act Up was beginning to really take hold, you know, the second half of the eighties. And, you know, how…how did you interface with HIV? When did you become aware of it? Wh…what happened within your church around HIV?

When HIV first came on…really on the scene in (unintelligible) I was at St. John’s, in Raleigh, at the time. And uh…we had a few folks there who came out um as infected—not a lot—and so what we decided to do there was uh…mainly social service things. And since uh kinda wadn’t much we could do not havin’ our own space. And so we did the Angel Tree thing, you know, every year at Christmastime in that we would make sure we bought gifts for some of the local um…um…people livin’ with AIDS/HIV. Uh, we did baskets, different time…various times of the year that were theme oriented—like a beach basket, stuff like that, that provided toiletry items. Um…and then once I went, left there went to St., went to Imani, we continued that whole piece, as well.

Um, and, and what we’re tryin’ to do at Imani is try and connect with the HIV community but in connection to women. Because it is a very underrepresented population, because there’s such a stigma for women to say they’re infected. Um…and…(Still, in your area)…in our area, yeah, still. It’s not, there are not…if there’s any support groups for women, it’s only like 1 or 2, at the most—men, all over the place—women, 1 or 2. So we been tryin’ to crack that nut at the church, to say, you know, “we’re here” you know. “What is it you need from us; what can we do?”

Uh, but one thing we do do every year—Share Your Christmas—is we get gift requests from all the houses—which is about…(unintelligible) is included, which is like 48, 50 people, something like that. We had like 3 or 4 truckloads of gifts last year for Christmas that we delivered.

So you have found even with your own course of time within MCC, shifting from men with HIV to women with HIV?

Yeah, ‘cause the men, the men in our congregation are—they have their, their support groups and whatnot—even they see that women is a group that’s not…(yeah)…talked about.

For me, that’s even stunning to hear because, you know, I was working in HIV and I go to seminary, well…you know I started in pediatrics…(Hm, wow, okay)…I started in pediatric HIV, and so, you know services for women were so important. And most of the women are women of color!

Yeah. I asked…I was working with a lady, I said, “I need…can you give me a panel of women to come?” And it took her 2 months to find me 6 people who were willing to do it.

Wow! So you think that could be call of mission and ministry for Imani?

I’m hopin’ that it will be; I’m really hopin’ it will be. Um…she…she wa…she was doin’ interim stuff and so she’s left the position, but I’m, I’m still in contact with the person who was over her. And um…I said, I said “You know, we don’t want to identify, identify (unintelligible) but we just want ‘em to come and just talk a little bit about what does it mean to be a female living with this and what can we, as a church, do to support and partner with ‘em.

Well, I’ll be holdin’ that ministry in prayer.

Yeah; but it’s, it’s…I, I knew it’d be hard to reach out, but I had no idea it was that hard—there is such a stigma still. And so people will understand I work in a collar.

Well, I will be holding that ministry in prayer. That’s a powerful trend(?); and you know, HIV ministry’s close to my heart.

And we’re trying to find something that…we’re, we’re talkin’ to the Board…you know, lookin’ at who we are as a church and what, and what are our strengths. And our strength is that we’re predominantly women. And um, the, the men come—they love it, we have a good, we have a good, solid group of men that come, um…but we’re really trying to look, okay, how can we build on the strengths of what we have? And we have women who have a lot of resources, and so that was…um we took that on as to see what we could do. So we’re still trying, we’re still trying to get together.

Man, I’m gettin’ a cold chill and how come it’s cold? I mean, it’s Arizona! I feel like, I feel there’s a connection in this link, ‘cause women mentoring women…how powerf…women of color mentoring women of color. (Yeah, yeah) That is…

We have, we haven’t given up on it; we don’t kn…we’re gonna, we’re still workin’ on it; we’re still workin’ on it, we, it’s, it’s a slow process because it’s such a fear ‘cause we’re also talkin’ about your statement of religion and faith. And so that’s a whole, it’s a whole lot of things that, that have to overcome, so my intention when I get back is to call Carolyn and see if I can meet with one of ‘em just to talk. Just to let them know that this is who we are and we don’t mean any harm. We don’t want to ostracize, we just want to support in whatever way we can. And it’s really up to you to tell us how the support needs to be given.

Ah…soak it in prayer. Oh, my goodness! That’s beautiful.

So that’s what we’re trying to do, as best we can.

Is there anything that I didn’t ask that you want to share?

It’s been a wild ride! Um…20 years; no, not really, I’m just kidding. (Laughs)
Um, I sometimes wonder where I would be if I wasn’t, if I hadn’t found MCC. I often wonder about that and I don’t know where I would have been. ‘Specially if the Baptists came out to where they didn’t want me, bein’ a female lesbian and all. Um…hmm, I don’t think there is, I think you covered a lot.
(Incidental conversation follows.)

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