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A native of Portland, Oregon, Rev. Frodo shares deep roots in spiritual exploration and MCC diverstiy. Listen to Frodo’s story with MCC spanning thirty-plus years!

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Oral History

Where were you born?
I was born in Portland, Oregon.

I’m assuming you like to be called Frodo?
Frodo, yeah

Do you have a partner that you would like to include in this project?
Oh, well, my partner is Jamie Okulam. We got to change our names when we got married—our county issued actual marriage licenses, so we kept that benefit that she went out and changed all of her I.D. But I also live with my former partners Pat McHugh and Sally Cone and our 4 cats, so…that’s my family.

Wonderful…sounds like a cute little family…cozy.
(Laughing) It’s an MCC family!
It is an MCC family.

Did you grow up in a church?
My mom is a Methodist. She chose the Methodist Church—her mother was Seventh Day Adventist—and she chose Methodist. And we went to Methodist Sunday school some when we were kids, and we went to church with Mom. Dad was agnostic, always, and, you know, I didn’t really connect with the Methodists. I mean, I liked some of the music and I remember some things from Sunday school, but, you know, I was nominally Methodist as a kid.
And then I went to a music camp that was run by the Holy Name Sisters, who were Roman Catholic. So I experienced Catholic mass when I was at camp. And other than that, I didn’t really have other spiritual traditions when I was a child.

And when and how did you first hear about MCC?
OK, well, in-between those two things—I have to put the part in-between in—and when I began to spiritually search in my teens, realizing that I was gay and I didn’t think Christianity had a place for gay people, you know, I read the “clobber passages” in the Bible and decided this is probably not for me.
And so, what I was reading at the time was The Lord of the Rings—which is where my name, Frodo, comes from—and I decided to try praying the prayers that the elves prayed to Elbereth, who is Queen of the Stars in The Lord of the Rings. So I did that. And I couldn’t even talk to other people about that that was my spirituality, because they would go, “Well, that’s a work of fiction.”
But then when I started college—I went to Portland State University—and I walked into the Gay Studies Union, met my first gay people that I’d ever met, besides me. (I was pretty out in high school though, because Stonewall happened like the year before I entered high school, so there was all this information that I researched and did papers about and stuff, too—my professors who were open to that in the 60s.) But anyway, when I entered college I went into the Women’s Union and there was a magazine on the shelves called Woman Spirit and I thought, “Well, that looks interesting. I wonder what that’s about.” And it was women’s spirituality and they were talking about the Goddess. And I thought, “Wow, this is what I’ve always felt.”
So I connected with the whole women’s spirituality movement and with Wicca—celebrating the Goddess—began in that tradition and stayed in that tradition. And then one day, one of our friends invited my then-partner and me to visit MCC. And so I thought, “Well, this is interesting; I’ll see what this is,” you know. And so we went, and (unintelligible) that year was…1977 when I first walked in the door. And…
So, it was a friend, you know, telling us, and we went…should I tell the rest of that story? (I think so. Um, okay…well, I could go on so…I want you to shape the interview.) But, we were…there were probably 5 women in the room and maybe 80 men or something—the church was pretty big at that point but there were very few women still—and, so it was kind of strange from that standpoint. But they had—Austin Amerine was the pastor—they had among the communion servers, one was a woman. And so they had that awareness already that…you know, to have women in leadership.
And so they invited everyone to come to communion if you know Christ or are seeking Christ. I didn’t know if I was, but I wanted to go to communion, so I did. And I went to the woman, who was Betty Nelson in the Portland MCC, and she gave me, you know, the communion and as she prayed over me she said, “Mother-Father-God…” and began to pray. And I thought, “I can’t believe I’m hearing the word ‘mother’ in a Christian church,” and that was 1977 so this is like really early. But she said she felt moved by the Spirit to say that, and that’s really why I stayed and why I came back.

Who preached a sermon that you’ll never forget? And if you can include the name and when and where it was given.
Oh, there were a lot, I mean, Purple Grass…probably everybody knows Purple Grass and you’ve heard that story a bunch of times. And Austin used to preach one that we thought was his, but I remember now that he gave credit to the person who originated it and it was Kiss a Frog. I don’t know if anyone talked to you about that one yet, but the person who later became my pastoring mentor, not…she was never the pastor of a church I was in, but she was the pastor of my heart, Beau McDaniels, originated that sermon. And it was about the business of the church is kissing frogs. You know, that story about the frog prince and that, you know, we’re all like that until somebody loves us. So I remember that one.
There are lots…I mean, I could continue with…there’s a lot of ones that come to mind.

What do you like best about your local church?
Oh wow, I have…um…my own immediate community is Sister Spirit. It’s a women’s spirituality group and it’s eclectic women’s spirituality, I’d say. It’s probably mostly Wiccan, but people combine traditions so there’ll be like Wiccan and Feminist Christian or Pagan and Jewish or, you know (laughs) whatever their indigenous traditions and…and something else; some of them’ll say, “earth spirituality.” And it’s a women’s warp intentionally…for 21 years now—started out in MCC as a special ministry and we still are.
And I love that um…I love the creativity of the women in Sister Spirit. I love it that we’re open to all spiritual traditions and we really have grown in that. At first people weren’t very open to Christian…Christian language or Christian tradition—or the Jewish one either—but now people are really open to hearing about whatever people bring to the women’s spirituality celebrations. I love the energy—I love to move energy and work with energy, and um, oh wow…and that we connect with the earth. We don’t meet in the…in a building in the summertime…like from May through September at least, we meet outside in the park. And so, I love that…there’s a lot of things but…

Who has influenced you the most in MCC? And describe how this person did that.
Well that…I already mentioned her…that would be Beau McDaniels. Beau was the second woman ordained in MCC after Freda Smith, and so she goes…one of our founders, really. And our story is interesting…I…our pastor at the time was the spouse of…was Beau’s spouse, but they lived in Boise and Claudia came to interim pastor in Portland…church. And so she…her partner came to visit during our…I think it was our church anniversary celebration, and so in the social hall downstairs there’s all these people milling around—it’s a social hall—Beau came up to me and said, “Tell me about yourself. Who are you?”
And I said, “My name’s Frodo.” And she says, “No, I don’t mean your name; I mean who are you?”
And I just sort of sat back and said, “Well, I’m the resident Goddess worshipper, and I do subversive things like read the Tarot.” And she looked at me…and she…she looked at me kind of sideways, and she put her hands on my shoulders and said, “Well, we’re just gonna pray for the power of God to enter into you and the Devil to leave you,” and all that stuff. And I just went, “Oookay…” and I left!
And then I couldn’t sleep all night and the next day I came back and I made an appointment to talk to our pastor but Beau was still there when I walked in and I said, “Actually, I want to talk to her.” And so we went in the room and we thought…and she said, “Well, I have a few minutes,” you know. So we went in the room and we sat down and talked. And I said, “I don’t know why you said what you said, but here’s what I meant when I said, ‘I’m the resident Goddess worshipper:’” and I explained about my spirituality. And…you know, and I said, “I don’t know why you reacted that way.” And she said, “Well, I thought you were being flip with me, so I was flip back to you.”
And she talked about how because she had a ve…had a…well, you know, she was basically a butch—she was a leather dyke at the time, which I was not used to seeing, leather women in Portland at that time; this was 1980, I think—and as we talked—you know, we’d had this major disconnect in our language—but as we talked we began to feel understanding of each other’s spirituality and realized we had a lot of our story in common. And I just started to cry and she as well, and just…to connect with me on a heart level. Our languages were totally different, but our hearts were the same.
And then I came to our District Conference and at that Conference…it was the first out, gay, anything public that they’d ever had in Boise, Idaho and they had District Conference there. So they had a march on the state capitol, and there were probably about 200 of us there for Conference. So we led this march, and the week before Jerry Falwell had been there and he had his choir of matched singers, you know, all singing the…all singing…the National Anthem. And so we had our diverse group of people singing the Black National Anthem (laughs) you know, just whatever…you know, we…we geared it to make that contrast clear. And we carri…it was a candle-light vigil.
I, at the time was still closeted to my parents. I didn’t carry a candle because I was afraid I would show up—it was being televised regionally. And so Freda Smith spoke—preached, actually—at that rally, and then Beau spoke and she said, um…her name, “I’m Rev. Beau McDaniels; I’m gay and I’m Christian,” and just talked about her church. And this…in 1980 to talk and be out—Hi, I’m gay and Christian—in Boise, Idaho was not easy. And there was a lot of history there…there’s a lot of history there of gay people being persecuted.
And so, she ended that talk with saying she was so proud of the people who were there marching, risking their jobs and their families, maybe even their lives to be there. And I thought, “Wow, what about you?” you know, “Here you are with your face on TV.” And she said, “Now, you’re gonna walk down these steps with your head held high; and you’re never gonna hide again!” And I just felt, like, wow, I could do that; you know, I could really do this.
And I felt from that moment on like I had that courage. And I thoug…was trying to figure out later, well, how can she do that? What gives her that kind of courage? And realized that it…that’s what Jesus did. That is was that—that courage comes from Christ and therefore I can have it too. So that really brought me fully into understanding why I was there in MCC.
And she’s been a mentor to me in ministry, and all along the way. There are lots of other stories, but um…that’s been…that’s been the person who has been the most instrumental. There’s a lot of other names, but…yeah.

Thank you for that. What do you like best about the movement, ministry, and community of MCC?
Wow; the first thing that I noticed in MCC, even that early, even though it was mostly male at the time, was how diverse they were. It was not one cl…like most churches are one class of people, you know? same socio-economic level if not the same racial background and ethnic background even. And MCC isn’t—it’s very diverse in all those ways, and I liked that. And Wiccan circles at the time were not diverse, they are now but they weren’t so much then, ‘cause people weren’t out of the broom closet and they’d just meet with their friends—whoever they knew—so they tended to be really, one kind of person too, but…MCC was all kinds of people.
So I liked that and I liked the way that, you know, one person can make a difference. And that was really clear in MCC then and it still is now. And I felt like I could…you know, I could make a difference too.

How many General Conferences have you attended?
Oh, you know, I haven’t counted how many. My first one was 1980. I missed the one in Toronto because I was at seminary, so I don’t know how many that makes because we didn’t have…I mean, we have ‘em every two years or we have had them every two years. But I think I’ve been at every one except Toronto.

When is a moment that you have been proud to be a member of MCC?
Wow, there have been a lot of moments like that. Um…the one that comes to my mind right now, and probably people have said this one, when we had General Conference in Atlanta and we were…we had a march, and when we were marching by um…you know, what is it?—the Ebenezer Baptist Church—and they all…the members of that church came out, and were there applauding us. And I just felt like, Wow! you know. They’re honoring our liberation movement; this is amazing to me that, you know, to be…to have that recognition from those people who went through that persecution. You know, that was a huge moment when I felt like, Wow! you know, this is beautiful that I can be part of this.

What do you like best about General Conference?
(Laughs) Seeing people. Seeing people, I mean, meeting people—meeting new people—seeing people that I know and love and haven’t seen for years. Re-meeting…you know, like I just finished talking to Karen Ziegler, and she was like at the beginning of my whole time in MCC. And it was wonderful to reconnect.
I love worship—I love…last night was awesome—the healing service when you can feel the Holy Spirit so clearly present. I love that. I love feeling the presence of God in this body, and um…and the community, just…yeah…very strong.

What do you remember about the Inclusive Language Project?
Oh, what a story there, yeah! Yeah, I remember they were starting to talk about inclusive language when I first came to MCC. And, you know, they were…they began to discuss it before the 1980 Conference because one of the things that was happening at that Conference was not only the implementation of the policy on inclusive language, but also they were changing the Statement of Faith in the Bylaws to re…to reflect inclusive language.
So there were these two inclusive language fights going on, and the original plan was that we had to use gender-neutral language all—for everything—all pronouns had to not be gendered, and um… There was a meeting, which they had at 8 in the morning, or earlier, which is not my time of day, and that room was packed. I mean, people were sitting on top of each other practically to be in that room and discuss this.
And people were passionate. And some people were passionate about No…you know, you can’t take my language that I’m used to away! And I said—I spoke, and this was my first time to be at an MCC General Conference; I was not coming as a delegate or anything, I was just an attendee—and I said, “Well,” I said, “I would like to ask for a possibility to balance male and female language also; because if you leave out female language you’re also leaving me out.” And they heard that; and some people said, “Wow, I had never thought of that!”
And so then when it came to the Conference floor they had already made that change; they added balancing. And I thought, “Wow, I’m not anybody, you know, and they listened to me.” And that was amazing to me that they would hear that request just from one little person.
And I remember, uh…you know, the whole thing about don’t take…don’t take my…“the Son of God” from me. And we heard that, too—we put “Son of God” and we left it in because it was important to some of the people there, and uh…you know…just, whatever people felt was deeply felt and not… I think we kind of heard it (herded?) into being. We weren’t quite sure how to do it yet, but…we made it happen. And we were one of the first denominations, if not the first, to do that.

What do you remember about the beginning of the ministry to transgender people at MCC?
Oh, wow, at first there…I remember there being transgendered people, you know, like early on before I…before I knew much about, you know, that. I mean, Sky Anderson’s here—Sky was there! you know, in those early, early years before I’d ever known any transgendered men. And I think just first, ministry presence, just having transgendered people present. And then really getting to know…and to hear and be ministered to spiritually from friends of mine in MCC who are transgendered.
And knowing people as they were going through the transition, talking with them about what it was like and all that. And then to begin to understand…I think there was one conference where we were talking about transformation—that the Church was about transformation—and we were talking about how, you know, we’re called to be in the world, transforming. And that, you know, and really putting the whole transgendered experience at the center of our…of also our faith experience, because, I mean… And there was all these…re-uses of the word “tr…” the “trans” word—I think that was a clergy conference, actually, where we had that among the conference plenary sessions, I think. But, I remember that really integrating transgendered experience into who we are in MCC.

What do you remember about the first children’s ministry in your MCC?
Oh, the first children’s ministry, wow. I remember that it was wonderful to have kids present, you know, because in the gay community a lot of times, they weren’t. And when I first came into MCC I was pretty young, like early 20s, and um, you know, so as a youth coming in…or almost a youth (laughs)…you know, it was good to be welcomed ‘cause a lot of places in…in the…in the lesbian community, if you were too young, you were just like not there, you know.
MCC was always welcoming of all ages—I mean, old and young—and it was wonderful to have kids. And people were always really appreciating the kids if there were kids present, because there weren’t kids in so many of our…of our community things. And kids being welcomed; kids being, you know, given places to be, and work, you know, done with them, and um… I don’t’ remember any specific stories, I don’t think.
I mean, I remember when Amanda, who’s been singing here at Conference, was a baby, (laughs) but you know, it’s wonderful to watch the children grow up in MCC.

What do you remember about MCC’s ministry during the AIDS pandemic?
Wow. Well, I remember when it began and how scary that was, ‘cause nobody knew what it was at first or why it was happening. And then I remember those early Conferences you know, when I mean, ha…seems like half the people you knew weren’t there ‘cause they were gone already.
And here, I remember learning to read the obituaries, because a lot of my friends were there. Um…I remember when my partner’s best friend, who was really young, like in his teens, um got AIDS and died really young. I don’t know if he made it to 21—I think he might have made it to 21—but a lot of people, like my age-group, got hit really hard—the young people got hit really hard, and um, and died really young. And that was hard; it was hard to watch—people that young going through that whole…that pain, and being there for them. And um…you know, just so many…and so many of the most beautiful, spiritually beautiful people too. Just to lose that many that quickly…
And for the women it was really…you know, you felt like you wanted to hold everybody else together because the men had to fear this happening to themselves as well as watching their friends die. And so, we didn’t have to fear that so much. Um…and then, you know, just helping our brothers deal with that.
And then I remember some…the flip side of that, when I was ordained and wanted to begin a women’s ministry, one of the men said, “How can you…how can you…start a women’s ministry when men are dying of AIDS?” And that was kind of…whoa…you know…that was a weird thing to listen to because I didn’t have anything to say to him. And so it was a strange experience from that too.
And I remember the first woman that I…that I knew who had AIDS. I wa…to watch her die of AIDS—Debbie Hardy, wonderful singer, strong, big woman, um and loving and wonderful, um—and wa…the drugs, when they came in, and were working, started working for the men? They didn’t work for her ‘cause they hadn’t studied what would work for women yet. And she just couldn’t do the drugs, and ended up…she decided that she was gonna go at Boardman, which was our annual retreat in our area. And so sh…we were out at the campground—the place she loved with the people she loved—so that was a beautiful way to go. But, um…it was hard; it was really hard.

Thank you for sharing; I know that’s not something (unintelligible) you to talk about. Is there anything else you’d like to add to this interview?
Wow, I don’t know which story…which story…I suppose, being me, I ought to put on the interview, although Delores Berry tells this story better than I do, but I should tell the story of my ordination interview, if you have time. Um…
And that uh…that was quite a process, because when um…I was licensed sort of by the skin of my teeth because um…I sort of slipped through into licensure, and then when I came up for ordination—at the time, you were licensed for two years and th…er one year and then you could be re-licensed and then you had to…to apply for ordination then—so when I applied for ordination, my local committee passed me with no problem; the international committee turned me down, and they said I didn’t have enough education. And at the time I had way more education than MCC required—I had a BA, which we only required a 2-year degree at that time, I think. And so, I thought, “Well, this isn’t right.”
And I…meanwhile, I had this gland in my neck that swelled up, and so I got…I had to go to the hospital to have the gland taken out of my neck, so it was a strange thing that way, and then reacted to the antibiotics. So as soon as I got out of the hospital I had an appeal, and Beau went around and got letters from everybody asking for them to hear the appeal. So um…so they heard it, I um…and I went into that interview, and they’d already decided, they told me later, they decided that they weren’t going to ordain me.
So I came into the interview—I mean, they’d looked at the materials and…basically, it was on theological grounds that…that was the real reason that they turned me down, and um… But anyway, they decided that they were gonna probably not, you know…ordain me. Uh…and they’d decided on a question to ask that they thought would really show why I shouldn’t be ordained, and they asked me, “What is your theology of the cross?”
And I thought, you know, sort of my life went before my eyes, and I thought, “Do I tell them what it really is, or do I make something up that sounds good?” (Laughs) And I thought, “If I can’t be real in my ordination interview, how am I ever gonna be real in my ministry?” So…yeah…so I said, “Okay,” I said, “well, I talk to trees.” And I thought, “I know I’m blowing this interview completely.”
“I talk to trees and one time it was around Easter I was visiting with this tree friend of mine, Questle, and um…and I was uh…talking to her—and she’s a lightning tree; she’s got a lightning strike going down; you could see the spiral around the bark and you could see the top few branches are missing and um…and—so I was kind of wondering at the time, you know, about what the theology of the cross—‘cause it never made sense to me about, you know, why somebody should die, you know, for us or whatever. And um…and Questle said ‘Well, um, you know, I’m a lightning tree and what lightning trees do,’ she said, ‘is we have our roots going really deep into the earth—deeper than the other trees—so we’re well grounded and we’re taller than the other trees. And so when the electrical charges come to the forest um…we take the charge and conduct it safely to the earth, and the other trees around are protected. And we might get burned up and die in the process, but the forest is saved.’ She said, ‘that’s what Jesus did.’”

Wow!
Yeah.

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